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I
welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world
with me George Galloway and me gri now
that Nelson Mandela has been laid to
rest arguably the greatest Global black
icon remaining is a man who did his
talking not just with his fists but with
the silverest of tongues Muhammad Ali
from the beginning at the Rome Olympics
in 1960 he was the smartest the
prettiest the best the greatest he could
have been a contender for All American
hero status but he was a man with
inconvenient convictions he announced he
was a Muslim and that he had no quarrel
with them Viet Kong no Vietnamese ever
called me he said they stripped
him of his title heavyweight champion of
the world and barred him from making a
living in the ring during what would
have been the best earning four years of
his life but he disproved the old boxing
ad age that Champions never come back
Muhammad Ali came back not once but
twice but in truth he never went away
his last fight took place this month in
1981 in the Bahamas against Trevor burck
though he lost his last fight he was by
then unbeatable in global affection
shortly we'll be talking to the
london-based Dutch photographer
Christina Johnson who got closer to the
great man than most of his opponents in
the ring D and who has lovingly produced
some of the greatest portraits of him
many of which should soon hang in the
British Parliament in an exhibition
sponsored by me but first gatri put her
red gloves on and took on the opinions
about ali in one of London's famous
boxing clubs how was it Mrs G it was
fantastic it very great to be among
these young boxers who really idolize
Muhammad Ali let's take a look wow he
did so many things for boxing and also
for Humanity which is all about yet to
support but you know icon for everything
I mean starting from the Vietnam War
where he didn't go and you know standing
for the right of black people in America
and you know is to me the greatest he
was not just ameran her American hero he
was the world's hero he was a what we
call International or like the Jamaicans
would use or the West indans would use
is an outernational all over the world
when he had the style and the but I
think the Charisma and the just almost
the image and the mythology of of the
man is really what I think kind of makes
him so enduring I would imagine and I
have things up on the walls and had his
quotes he was so intelligent and he was
so ahead of his time
really joining us now in the Red Corner
is famous photographer Christina Jansen
Christina thanks for coming on board the
Sputnik you have gotten close to
Muhammad Ali as I put it in the
introduction closer than many of his
oppon on ever got so first of all before
we discuss his professional life as it
were what's he like as a person
absolutely wonderful very warm uh he
treats everyone around him um the same
as as everyone else so he does he didn't
make that point in one of uh your
pictures I like that he said I'm a man
who was humorous and who treated
everyone right and he did the reason I
got to meet him and got to photograph
him is I was just basically employed as
a photographer to take Stills on a
commercial that he was making for when
he retired from boxing for a while he
had different businesses and this was um
in F Fulham Studios 1986 Believe It or
Not can't possibly be true and um so I
got the call and I and I arrived and he
was sitting there on the sofa surrounded
by lots of children who were completely
enamored with him and he was doing magic
tricks and making fun he made hankes
appear from everywhere and basically
what I got from him is I found him to be
like a like a big kid really that's what
he was like and they said go and sit
next to him and I went no no no it's
fine it's fine but um within no time um
I got to know him very well and he just
chattered away and he told me his
philosophy of life um which has actually
sort of kept me going all these years
and had a major on that that's the first
noteworthy thing I mean no disrespect to
boxers I was a boxer yes they're not
normally known for having a philosophy
of life he not most of them what was is
his philosophy of life well he has
various different one the one he told me
personally and you don't see in all the
the the books and so on um although it's
well known I think is that he said
Christina he said if you reach for the
moon you might end up next door but if
you reach for the stars you might get to
the moon and I think what he does for
everybody is give them inspiration to be
brave to have a go to believe in
yourself and nowadays that's quite hard
to do when everybody sort of seems to be
trying to stop you to doing the things
you want to do and I just I thought that
was fantastic to have you find them a
bragger I mean I I myself like that
quote I saw it in your work uh it's not
bragging if you can back it up precisely
uh and also you know he said things like
if you know if a person's not willing to
take risks in life you'll get nowhere
it's about just con you know just
keeping Keeping the Faith and my
goodness did he do that when he refused
to go to war and was willing to go to
prison and all of the thing the brave
things he's done in his life and the
most magnificent example well the level
of sacrifice is underestimated by
today's uh generation because for the
four years that he was banned from
making a living as a boxer yeah at the
absolute height of his physical uh
boxing uh prowess he would have made in
financial terms a phenomenal amount of
of money but he was ready to make that
sacrifice he could have joined the army
and he would have been given a job of
going around uh for photo calls and
celebrity
sh's appearances he would never have
actually been asked to fight the
Vietnamese but he refused because as he
put it he had no quarrel with the
Vietnamese and I believe also it was his
religion too that said that but um but
you know what he did during that period
of time he actually fed his brain he
read books upon books and he went and
lectured in different universities he
actually lectured I've seen a piece at
Harvard University so what he did in
that time he made the most of and and
just as was very hungry about learning
about the world all uh politics all
religions so this is why you know he
comes out with his amazing well his
politics were of course uh influenced by
Islam uh but he he had a very uh
eclectic uh selection of uh of sources
we have a wonderful picture of him with
with Malcolm X X but he broke of course
with with Malcolm he broke with him they
were very very close very good friends
but they broke with each other after Mal
X left the Nation of Islam but didn't
Ali regret that oh he said there was a
largest biggest mistake that he ever
made in his life everybody makes
mistakes I me but um you know and the
other one I think is that when he when
he was boxing and he was you know
showing off and that the whole game of
you know trying to kind of um uh have
the mental sort of superiority yeah over
the other and I think once or twice he
went a bit far and he regrets that but
it was you know it was that was just
well you'd have to have been there uh as
I unfortunately because I'm rather older
yeah was yeah uh when he was taunting
people what's my name what's my name it
was because they refused to use his name
he went from Casas clay insisted on what
he called his slave name casus marelus
clay yes uh and they refused to call him
by his name which was then Muhammad Ali
so although it seemed cruel I remember
very well at the Ernie Terrell fight for
example he was constantly D he could
have knocked Terrell down and one but he
kept him on his feet for nine rounds so
he could keep saying what's my name
what's my name I think this amazing he's
he's just got a fantastic sense of humor
and everyone around him is is uh you
know always he filled the ring does he
fill a room when you're with him yes and
and uh you know how and I don't say this
lightly but when I met him he did have
this very special Aura around him you
know and that you don't meet many people
that have that I I I really I really am
not surprised but I used to get up in
the middle of the night literally
because at that time uh satellite trans
Mission thanks to Sputnik had only just
begun and my father Our God Rest his
soul would wake me up in the middle of
the night to go downstairs and uh and
watch his fights yeah here was a black
fighter who was not only brilliant
mesmerizingly so in the in the ring uh
but who had so much to say for himself
and so articulately I was trying just to
remember when I was little I watched it
when I was in Holland too and you know
and the the fact he was not only a
brilliant boxer but an entertaining to
watch with his famous Shuffle and and
that and the whole kind of um theater of
it now I'm uh sponsoring an exhibition
of your photographs of Ali which should
hang in the British Parliament sometime
in the coming year just tell us quickly
the kind of pictures you'll see in it
well I mean the the the inspiration
behind the exhibition as first of all I
had a set of pictures obviously from
1986 and and I felt very protective
about ali at the time there seemed been
awful lot of people wanting things from
him and for some reason I put my
pictures away in a drawer for 20 years
brought them out a few years ago uh
after someone said have you got some
more I had one image I was showing of
Ali when he was fying down looking into
the camera and so that's one brought the
rest out then um I heard that uh the
Olympics is coming and it would be ary's
70th birthday and no having known Ary I
thought how as a photographer I mean I'm
a huge fan of the Dom colors and
photographers that go out and risk their
lives and do something for this world I
can't do that but I wanted to give
something back to the world and I'm a
huge um supporter of Amnesty
International and so on as well and I
thought well perhaps I could celebrate
Ali's 70th birthday help raise some
money for various causes including
Parkinson's and so on um so I then began
this trying to gather the top images to
tell the story of Al's Life along with
my my little time with him um and gather
them from all around the world I put
together 70 images for his 70th birthday
and I managed to get a gallery that
overlooked the Olympic stadium and that
also flew over Muhammad's brother
because I was told that Muhammad was too
poorly to to bring over at the time so
Rahman Ali who was at Ali's side his
whole life and the you know obviously a
loving supporter and so on came over
with his wife and opened the show and it
was amazing well who knows Let's uh hope
we can get the champion himself to come
over for the uh parliamentary uh
exhibition he asks in this how I would
like to be remembered he
says and if all that's too much then I
guess I'd settle for being remembered
only as a great boxer who became a
leader and a champion of his people and
I wouldn't even mind if folks forgot how
pretty I was they'll never forget not
least thanks to you know he actually
asked me am I still goodlooking and I
was like am I going to tell this big
boxer
no Christina jansson thank you very much
pleased after the break we'll be
reviewing the British economy which
feels like it's in the 15th round of a
grueling punishing bout we'll be talking
to RT's own Champion economics prize
fighter Stacy Herbert of the Kaiser
report we'll be right
back
welcome back to Sputnik British
Chancellor of the exer Gideon Osborne he
calls himself George though that is not
his name because Gideon sounds well just
too push has turned out to be several
years out in his forecast for balancing
the British books but his austerity
blows have left a lot of blood on the
British canvas who better to review his
performance thus far than Stacy Herbert
Stacy welcome to the Sputnik I make the
point be because if you listened to
George Osborne you'd think that we were
if not now swimming happily gambling uh
in the Green Meadows the alysian fields
of uh new found Prosperity all based on
less than 1% growth in the economy but
if you're actually in the world in the
country you're still shivering well it's
not bragging if you can back it up so
somebody famous once
said so I want to point to something
that he said in the Autumn statement
that the deficit is declining they're
focused very much on the deficit well
here my box and glove says UK deficit at
185 billion not 90 billion as George
Osborne says warns MPS and this is from
the Public Accounts committee so there's
a lot of lying going on about the state
of the economy I'm sure you see it when
you're doing the Vox pops out in the
street there's Rising homelessness
there's visits to the soup kitchens um
down on the street it's pretty bad the
headline numbers like um London house
prices being up over 12% in the past
year to many of his sort of
constituents that is good news but for
the majority of the population 12% house
price Rises are bad news yes uh I mean
we have just uh sold our house and
buying uh a more expensive one but
that's a misnomer because actually we're
borrowing uh most of the money to buy
that when you see people uh in the rush
for Christmas in the stores they're all
buying on plastic in fact the shop
assistants look a scance if you actually
offer them notes uh so they're all
buying on debt how does the debt picture
look the important thing to note here is
that it's all going to housing
speculation there is a decline in debt a
decline in investment businesses aren't
borrowing to invest
that's the important thing so where are
your jobs going to come from where is
your wealth creation going to come from
therefore you just have debt which is
unsustainable we have the Red Queen
syndrome it's called you know you have
to run faster and faster just to stay in
the same place and you see so this is
part of the global story and the UK
economy is just part of the global
economy where more and more debt is
needed just to stay flat on GDP not even
to grow anymore so it's a you know it's
all just going to fall into an
exhaustion the deficit fixation uh of
the government and the treasury uh that
kind of went out of fashion as a way of
looking at the economy in the depression
uh of the 1930s the gold standard and
all of that uh canes you would have
thought had taught
subsequent Generations that actually no
one can freeze themselves out of uh
recession that what's necessary is money
in people's pockets I mean if they're
doing all this quantitative easing which
you and Max constantly talk about if
you're going to do the quantitative
easing why not go out on the street find
poor people and give them the money that
would actually Kickstart the economy far
more that's what they should have done
from the beginning and instead they
chose to bail out the bankers and the
bond holders of this uh the global Ponzi
scheme that we see now dur during the
1930s during the Great Depression those
who escaped recession at least
temporarily first were the ones who were
able to devalue First against gold or
drop off the gold standard here we have
the Global Currency war and this is
something as well why we have all this
quantitative easing is actually a
currency War it's trying to uh export
your deflation to somewhere else when
you talk to B Guri talks to people all
the time on the streets on these box
Pops I mean there's no sign of uh
economic Feelgood is there no C Stacy me
and Joy's life love to go to HMV get our
box sets but the one that we went in Ox
streat which is which is their Flagship
they're they're basically selling their
things out for nothing you know I went
to sufres a few weeks ago and it was jam
packed to the rafters thousand pound
jeans being sold to mostly uh Middle
Eastern Eastern European people who are
very very
wealthy yeah and I walked down Oxford
Street through markson Spencer deserted
there's no middle anymore we noticed
that as well so HMV is closing down
giving away their stock was almost like
a market like a Street Market yeah you
box set 224 here you are almost whatever
you'll offer for it and the marks and
Spencer's end of the market nobody's
spending so in London this is the reason
I'm raising this is that in Scotland for
example where there's a referendum on
Independence the story is that London is
fabulously wealthy but that's not true
only a small part of London well London
is a money laundering Center that's what
it is a lot of the house price uh boom
is about moneya laundering it's it's
people from other parts of the world
taking their wealth of the nation out of
their own Nations and sinking it here
where they think it's safe and therefore
they don't mind if they lose 50% because
if you go to a money launder in a back
alley you're going to get 20 cents on
the dollar for laundering your money so
here they're like well who cares if
house prices fall 40% at least I get 60%
of my ill gotten gains back so does that
make London different from other world
cities uh yeah because they tolerate
more a lot of it say for example came
after the Patriot Act so a lot of um
Middle Eastern money was afraid to be in
the US because of the Patriot Act and
and the war on terror so they came here
that drove a lot of money in here nobody
wants to be too close to the US because
they just seese anybody's stuff
regulation is lighter here y but also
for the moment at least Britain is a
stable country so if you're a foreign uh
potentate or even just somebody who's
rich yeah from abroad you're unlikely to
see your property go up in smoke in
civil disorder and you're certainly
unlikely to feel Gideon Osborne and
David Cameron's hand on your collar
asking you difficult questions about how
you got the money still Les leving tax
on you yeah exactly and the US and the
UK are the only two that don't Levy tax
on foreign owners of property but also
remember the UK has the lowest level of
house building since the 1920s when the
population was half what it is now so
you can guarantee that the system is set
up by the likes of Gideon and his merry
band of cohorts in the in in Downing
Street and they will make sure that the
house prices stay up like that now one
thing I want to say about all this debt
building up speaking of float like a
butterfly and sting like a bee is that
the butterfly effect I floated like a
bee and stung like a butterfly when I
was a boxer that's kind of why I hung up
my gloves G so you
say you know that the the butterfly
effect is you know in this chaos theory
and we live in a chaotic system at the
moment is that just a small effect
somewhere butterfly flaps its wings in
Africa and causes a hurricane in the
Caribbean this is the theory and it's
one of the one day it could be 2014 just
one little flap of the wing of debt will
just blow the whole thing up there's a
cheerful note for
Christmas thank you very much Stacy
Harbor our own champion on the
economy now this is where you come in
through our social media portal rtor
Sputnik gatri what's rattling the pipes
huge discussion this week I stated that
after Mandela's death Muhammad Ali is
the greatest Global black icon to which
I got a great response of people saying
uh discussing um the matter of
mentioning him being black as if sidiki
says for example Muhammad Ali is the
greatest icon period why should you
describe him as a black white or any
color because he's black because he's
black indeed I got so I had so many
responses saying get the black out of
the sentence and you still you know you
still got the line of course uh Ali
whether black or any other color would
be a great Global icon but he is the
greatest black Global icon and black
people need icons just like everybody
else needs icons I can't imagine uh that
uh Ali would be in any way unhappy about
that disc no not at all this is just the
political correctness political
correctness liberalism don't get me
started indeed no PC for us anyway
there's also lot of response on whether
he was the greatest icon or not some
people were suggesting MLK Jr Ley
Malcolm X of course Malcolm X but he's
no more well Malcolm is no more Martin
Luther King was of course a very great
icon uh he's no longer with us uh in any
case his Global recognition was never
anything like uh Ali's people have to
shake themselves of the idea that Global
means Britain and America or even Europe
and America
everybody in Africa Asia the middle east
Europe North America South America
austral Asia would know at a glance at a
picture that's Muhammad Ali he was the
champion of the world Phil Adamson says
the only other black icons in the
mainstream culture now are NFL NBA or
rappers and Obama none come close to Ali
though uh he's right about that uh but
he's wrong about the and the idea that
and ba or rappers classify as Global I
don't know he's talking about mainstream
culture so I agree in that sense nobody
in Britain knows what NBA even no they
they don't need to know what NBA is but
they know what NBA NBA has they know
Dennis Rodman they know Michael Jordan
wrong about that Dennis Rodman's a
friend of mine I mean no disre to him
but if we took him in the street now
people would say that's a remarkably
tall man but nobody would know who he
was but it's not about the sport it's
about the culture that and and outre
they have I mean don't get me started on
rappers first of all the the negativity
of the words in most of this rap music
if you want to call it that I agree uh
is the antithesis of both Mandela and
Muhammad Ali you and I can argue about
that later go ahead um well and then
there were some people who were arguing
that he was indeed not at all a great
icon there know he was just boxing in a
ring they're saying which is
unbelievable to which markk he wise
response he was also a big part in the
breaking down of racial tensions in the
USA who can say he did nothing even if
he had only been three times the
heavyweight champion of the world never
mind that it was taken away from him
never mind that he was
effectively uh quarantined by the power
in the United States for the four of his
best fighting years uh then he would be
the great icon that we know him to be
but of course he was very much more than
that people on Twitter who know that you
were a boxer wanted to know whether you
box like Ali that is float like a
butterfly and sting like a bee no I
floated like a bee and stung like a
butterfly no I was more uh Rocky Balboa
I'm afraid all right I like to think I
was Rocky Marciano but I was kind of
more Rocky Balo and not least cuz I was
a southpaw leading with the right
instead of the left okay South Paul well
that's all the tws we got time for and
all we've got time for on this week
week's show it just remains for me to
wish you and yours a very Merry
Christmas you can still tweet US during
Christmas at rtor Sputnik it's goodbye
from me gri and from me George Gallow
it's been
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marvelous